(Yes, it’s a euphemism. Also a poker variant, the first we learned about with “community cards” before the behemoth of “Hold ‘Em” took over the world.)
If you want to pursue the “restroom signage” theory, here as a bonus comic is some evidence this artist likes to use those:
Comics I Don't Understand 
Bathers often pee in the ocean. The beach is conveniently divided into separate pee areas for men and women. The joke is that this is completely unnecessary.
I thought the cat door “bonus” comic was funnier than the main one! ;-)
I don’t understand “pursue the ‘restroom signage’ theory.” What other theory is there?
RE: Cat door. We actually HAVE a dogs’ “bathroom”, as they are not walked or allowed into the yard. So we do have a doggie door leading from the patio area into their potty pen. Very convenient, and both male and female dogs use the same pen. ‘-)
Ditto Winter Wallaby. What other theory is there about what they mean.
“spit in the ocean” is a euphemism? For pissing in the ocean? Why would we have a euphemism for that?
I’ve never heard the phrase except as the stud poker variation which was my favorite when I was ten (thanks to my favorite uncle).
I have heard, from Terry Pratchett and others, of the….. what is the term for these time of adages…… wry comment: Every bit helps, as the old woman said as she peed in the ocean. … which would work just as well for “spit” which I assumed was the meaning of the name of the stud poker.
(What is the name for the type it adage that goes : observation as X said as he did a funny interpretation of the observation. Perhaps the most well known is: “To each their own, as the old woman said as she kissed the cow”?)
Woozy and Winter: The other, and not-specifically-bathroom-adjacent understanding of the signs, is simply “Men swim over here, women swim over here.”
Here’s a British term (at least I only see it in BritComs or BritBooks) AND an ‘OY’ . . .
Andrea, Do you mean the term ‘pie hole’? I thought that was a redneck trope.
We (Brits) are more likely to say cake-hole.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/320050.html says cake-hole started somewhere in the mid-20thC in the UK and in the 1940s was used in military service slang by airmen.
“The later equivalent term ‘shut your pie-hole’ began use in the USA in the 1980s. It isn’t clear if that derives from the ‘cake-hole’ version or was coined independently.”
Yep, that’s what I just read, too; I was sure I’d only read it in BritBooks, tho. Oh well, fading memory – that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.
I’ve only heard “pie hole” in the U.S since the 80’s and I always assumed it was derived from a vulgar (bordering obscene) bit of misogyny.
No, idea of the etymology of “cake hole” but I always thought it seemed weirdly physical as cakes…. crumble.
Woozy: I believe it’s just the hole where you put pies and cakes: your mouth.
Yes, that’s all it is, at base. But it’s disturbing because it leaves you wondering if the users of those expressions will soon be designating other bodily orifices as “X-hole” based on what may go into – or come out of – those areas.
Americans may recall when there was mooted a foreign-policy category of “s***hole countries”. Both there and in more general usage I don’t think it means the anus (as on Mitch’s generalization), but more likely a hole in the ground, for latrine purposes.
But it’s a weird distinction. Why cake? All my food goes in that hole. And you want to shut what is coming out and you are talking of cake…. which is cakey…. for me the envisioning is very strange and very unpleasant. (I’m talking just my impression… why I find the expression really…. off-putting.)
My interpretation of “pie-hole” is probably inconsistant with everyone elses (and my pet hypothesis is is came for “Revenge of the Nerds”) although much more crude offensive and disturbing and just plain gross, is … at least consistent.
Frankly I’d be really happy waking up to find both phrases magically expunged for history and everyone’s memory.
“Frankly I’d be really happy waking up to find both phrases magically expunged for [from] history and everyone’s memory.”
I heartily agree . . . as with you, I find it particularly offensive (which is the point, I s’pose).
What is the name for the type it adage that goes…
It’s reminiscent of Tom Swifties (example: “The thermostat is set too high,” said Tom heatedly.).
I see Woozy’s examples as fitting more with the “… said the actress to the bishop” type of rejoinder.
But I do like Swifties. My preference is to rate more highly those where the statement has been written to more or less fit the style suggested by the adverb (apart from the content punning on it). Thus, to pick up on Ed’s example, we might amend to
“The $%^&$%^^ thermostat is set too ^^^^# high,” said Tom heatedly.
or
“I demand the management turn down that thermostat!” Tom exclaimed heatedly.
My grandma would say things like “‘I see,’ said the blind man. ‘You lie like hell!’ said the dummy.” Or, “‘I see,’ said the blind carpenter, as he picked up his hammer and saw.”
I always heard the noun as “Tom Swiftly”, using the adverbial form.
“Frankly I’d be really happy waking up to find both phrases magically expunged for history and everyone’s memory.”
“I heartily agree . . . as with you, I find it particularly offensive (which is the point, I s’pose).”
Wow. Those are strong reactions. I always thought of these as quite innocent phrases, more euphemistic than simply saying ‘Shut up!’ or ‘Shut your mouth!’ The ‘pie’ and ‘cake’ soften the blow a little, adding something nice to the aggressive thing you really want to say. At least for me. To each their own!
Stan, the pleasant associations of the mentioned desserts may go a good ways to ameliorate those phrases. But anything is going to remain problematic as long as it uses “hole”.
Well, there are some exceptions.
‘Ace in the hole’
‘Hole in one’
‘Watering hole’
I’d prefer ‘pie-hole’ to ‘your mouth’ after ‘shut’. Although I do seem to be alone.
“Fire in the hole!” makes me nervous.
In my house growing up, ‘shut up’ was considered to be as bad as the F word, so I’ve always flinched when ‘shut your . . . ‘ or even ‘shut the door’ is used. Just personal baggage.
The court tried to make me hole once.
“‘I see,’ said the blind carpenter, as he picked up his hammer and saw.”
Yes, that’s the exact paradigm example.
Every word is the right one and in the right place.
Good one, larK.
“I always thought of these as quite innocent phrases, more euphemistic than simply saying ‘Shut up!’ ”
You’re kidding…. right?
” The ‘pie’ and ‘cake’ soften the blow a little, adding something nice”
You must really be kidding, right?
….. telling someone to shut up is blunt, but degrading their mouth to body parts to shove food in and out of, to debase their thoughts to useless vomitting and gorging, and to liken the mouth to anus and **** is just dehumanizing.
…
I see Woozy’s examples as fitting more with the “… said the actress to the bishop” type of rejoinder.
Yes actress to the bishop.
Tom Swifty (which should be called Tom Swiftlys but arent’) are concentrating on the adjectives and making a pun. Actress to the bishop concentrates on the phrase itself and makes it an absurd example.
Not quite the same as Stephen Leacock’s “He flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions.” I think that one is unique; there is no name for that construction.
RE
“I always thought of these as quite innocent phrases, more euphemistic than simply saying ‘Shut up!’ ”
You’re kidding…. right?
I doubt that Andrea is kidding, but in any case, I agree with her. And I’m not.
Simply can’t imagine the strong reactions expressed here against the “pie hole”/”cake hole” variants. But, of course, YMMV.
(For what it’s worth, while I’m an American who’s never been to England, I prefer the term “knickers” to “panties” as well.)
I think this was a reply to not-Andréa . . .
Shrug: are you agreeing with Andrea “I find it particularly offensive (which is the point, I s’pose).”?
or with Stan “more euphemistic than simply saying ‘Shut up!’ or ‘Shut your mouth!’ The ‘pie’ and ‘cake’ soften the blow a little, adding something nice to the aggressive thing you really want to say.” and “I’d prefer ‘pie-hole’ to ‘your mouth’ after ‘shut’”?
But seriously? You consider “shut your pie-hole” to be a pleasant and innocent thing to say? And you can’t imagine a negative reaction?
Wow, that’s …. just wow.
“You must really be kidding, right?”
No, not at all. Where you seem to be pondering the deeper implications of this phrase, all I hear is ‘cake’ and ‘pie’…you know, nice things…which detract from the rather aggressive expression behind it.
I’m sure I’ve only ever heard these phrases in a playful way as well, such as a response to me teasing someone or something.
“Nice haircut. Did you do it yourself?”
“Oh, shut your pie-hole! I like it!”
If in that exchange, they had said ‘Hey! Shut your mouth!’ I would think that I’ve truly upset that person and would feel the need to apologise.
Anyway, it’s neither here nor there. We all have different interpretations and reactions to things. I think I’ve made my position clear, so I’ll just shut my…I’ll keep quiet about it from now on.
“Well you can just go and .. and .. and … and eat something sweet and filling!”
I wrote and asked two friends – one born in Scotland/living in England and one born in England/living in Australia – just how AGGRESSIVE this phrase is, to them. Stay tuned for answers.
Speaking of Australia (as I was): They have an interesting ‘take’ on words – infantilization [yes, I know that’s a made-up word] of the language. For example, ‘brekkie’ for breakfast; ‘biccie’ for biscuit (I had to admit to using both of those, which is why they come to mind). And so many more . . .
infantilization [yes, I know that’s a made-up word]Have no fears, it has been a standard English word for quite some time, if a bit academic.
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/infantilization
Definition of infantilization in English:
infantilization
(British infantilisation)
Pronunciation /ˌinfəntl-iˈzāSHən/ /inˌfan-/
NOUN
See infantilize
‘A life devoted to instant gratification produces permanent infantilization: ‘at sixty-four… tastes are what they were at seventeen.’’
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/infantilize
infantilize
(British infantilise)
Pronunciation /inˈfantilīz/ /ɪnˈfæntɪlaɪz/
TRANSITIVE VERB
[WITH OBJECT]
Treat (someone) as a child or in a way which denies their maturity in age or experience.
‘seeing yourself as a victim infantilizes you’
The two spellchecks I used are not up to date, then.
Which brings up something I wondered . . . how long before COVID, covid, coronavirus become ‘authentic’ words in spellchecks . . . ?
My British friend writes (she tends to write without punctuation):
In Edinburgh shut your cakehole is what I would call passive aggressive you would hear it in a pub when someone would be spouting gibberish after a few drinks eg trump is a genius. then someone would say ach shut your cakehole. Quite often used to stop a drunk continuing an inflammatory conversation. but if you were in a pub frequented by eg rangers football supporters and you suggested that the goalkeeper might need glasses then the same phrase could cause a fight. I remember the phrase more from school days than as an adult, also phrases like ”awa an boil yer heid in a cabbage” means the same thing but a bit less aggressive. I heard it at school and tried to copy the phrase lol I had a snobby accent and was not allowed to speak slang so I said go and boil your head in a cabbage everyone just laughed at me. Haven’t hear pie hole used
Another kind of hole . . .
I tend to side a little more with Stan on this. (And before you ask, woozy, no I’m not kidding. And before you ask again, woozy, no I’m not kidding.)
“Shut your pie-hole” is unquestionably at least potentialy quite rude, but it needs to be compared again “shut your mouth,” which is also potentially quite rude. So the only way either phrase is going to be OK is if it’s said in a jokey, playful, familial sort of way. Either phrase could be done that way, based on tone of voice, and expression, but the silliness of “pie-hole” makes it somewhat more likely to come off as playful.
But this isn’t something you can reason out based on logic like “pie is good,” or “holes are bad.” It’s mostly just going to be based on the contexts in which you’ve heard the phrases.
“Shut your [confection] hole” ads an extra layer of insult to just “shut your mouth” — a mouth is used for discourse, debate, and wit; you obviously don’t have one of those, you merely have a gaping void into which you shove food.
From my friend in Australia:
In the UK it’s definitely cake-hole.
It’s crude/common, whatever the context.
Said between friends it might roughly equate to ‘what’s your idea of bringing that up?’ but generally speaking – pretty aggressive. It’s certainly not assertive ;-)
Maybe a couple of notches down from Shut the f**k up.
re: “Shrug: are you agreeing with Andrea “I find it particularly offensive (which is the point, I s’pose).”?
or with Stan “more euphemistic than simply saying ‘Shut up!’ or ‘Shut your mouth!’ The ‘pie’ and ‘cake’ soften the blow a little, adding something nice to the aggressive thing you really want to say.” and “I’d prefer ‘pie-hole’ to ‘your mouth’ after ‘shut’”?”
Correction noted; I recalled Andrea’s comment that her family found a blunt “Shut up” to be highly offensive, and I failed to remember that she went on to say that she found the extensions discussed here even more so. Apologies to Andrea for misreprsenting her.
But yes, I’m definitely with Stan. I suppose in real life if a seven-foot tall drunken Hell’s Angel, swinging a bloody chain back and forth, told me to “shut my cake hole,” I would consider that quite aggressive. But that’s never happened to me in real life, and I can’t even recall if anyone at any time has told me to do so.
But in reading/thinking about the phrase, I can’t help hearing it in terms of gentle friendly teasing, sort of like saying “Oh, you big silly — just close your pretty little mouth.”
(Of course, if a seven foot etc. Hell’s Angel say “Oh, you big silly — just close your pretty little mouth.” I’d probably consider that agressive too. Context is, if not everything, at least a big chunk of everything.)
I shall now log off to go get supper, otherwise known as “shutting my pizza hole.”
Does “cake hole” have any relation to “cake eater”, a 1920’s expression for a man who is not a “real man”? i.e. eating cakes and sweets instead of real man food like a wild boar you killed with your bare hands. That is, is there an implied insult in “shut your cake-hole”?
“But in reading/thinking about the phrase, I can’t help hearing it in terms of gentle friendly teasing, sort of like saying “Oh, you big silly — just close your pretty little mouth.””
Wow! You and Stan went to very different playgrounds than I did!
To my mind “Shut your pie hole” is something a gang member or a cop would say to display dominance and dismiss the other as a being whose mere existence is an offensive annoyance, incapable of any pertainent thought and and any attempt at thought is an streaming whiny noise, and the world would be better off if the talker would just die.
Yep, that’s how I would hear it.
It would be over sixty years ago and memories fade, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t encounter many gang members or cops at my school playground, just common or garden-variety young bullies. (And since they were generally inarticulate young bullies, I think I would might have been charmed if any of them had been linguistically inventive enough to say something like “shut your cake hole.”)
But this is Getting Silly, and I think I’ll now shut my cake-holding typing fingers.
Using ‘ear hole’ and ‘cake hole’ . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HlcqQRPeI
sorry – start at 4:37
Andréa, I can’t help cracking up for “Are you being served?”.
Wow. What an interesting debate. I never would have thought these expressions would stir such passions!
To Andrea, I’m not sure the examples you’re giving really prove your point. Your British friend suggests, context aside, it’s often used to calm down a mouthy drunk rather than to incite further aggravation. He/she also says they remember it from the playground, i.e. a phrase that children use.
Your Australian friend says it’s a ‘couple of notches down from…’, implying its euphemistic nature. They also say it’s ‘pretty aggressive’ opposed to ‘aggressive’, and continue with it’s ‘certainly not assertive’.
The video you shared is kind of the same. The humour lies in posh people using ‘common’ expressions. But if you were to substitute ‘a butt round the ear’ole’ with ‘a punch in the face’, or ‘shut his cake’ole’ with ‘shut his mouth’, it would be far less light in tone and people would be uneasy about laughing at this serious turn of events.
Returning to anecdotal evidence, I work in an international British school, and yesterday I cornered two Brits and an Aussie and posed this question: “Which would be more aggressive to you, ‘Shut your mouth’ or ‘Shut your cake-hole’?” They just started giggling.
It could have been the absurdity of the question that led to this, but there was certainly no gasping or clutching of pearls at the abrasive language I had used. They did agree in the end that the latter is a euphemism of the former.
In any case, there seems to be no right answer to this. If you find these expressions offensive or not, then it’s becoming clear it’s a matter of the context of their use or your own biases. I think we’ll all have to just agree to disagree.
In fact, I’ve spent far too much time on this. I’m going to get some pie.
You’ve never watched it? Believe me, as non-PC as it is (for our time), it’s quite funny, as are As Time Goes By, Last of the Summer Wine, Keeping Up Appearances, Vicar of Dibly, etc. I much prefer them to American ‘comedies’, just as I prefer British detective/mystery shows to American ‘crime shows’, altho the one with Vincent D’Onofrio was ok.
Andréa, I must have expressed myself badly, I have watched almost all of Are You Being Helped, and agree it is so often hilarious that I can’t be bothered toting up how much of the portrayed attitudes are off base by 21st century “enlightened” standards.
And who will be taking care of Mrs Slocum’s pussy?
‘Served’. Interestingly, in the interview video with the writers of this and other BritComs, one of the BBC folks states that he ended AYBS because it WAS so non-PC. I always assumed that’s why people liked it . . . same reason so many folks like Mel Brooks’ movies.
SPEAKING of pie . . .
Andrea. I liked your comic! However, not to keep harping on about it, but it certainly brings ‘pie-hole’ into a new context. Now I’m disgusted, that’s for sure!
There really is a disease named pyorrhea. Ask your dentist about it. And the cookie makers are at risk for it. Is the last panel just misspelled?
“Is the last panel just misspelled?”
NO.
“pyorrhea” — “Is the last panel just misspelled?”
Andréa says no, and it does seem that “piearrhea” is wanting to convey “pie-induced diarrhea”.
Mitch4 (“Are You Being Helped”): Did you mean “Are You Being Served”? Or is this a different show? I (too?) watched all of AYBS but I’m a bit amazed to see that it was 1972 to 1985 — rather older than I would have guessed. And what was the name of the one (from about the same time) with the young Irish priest? I loved that one, too.
Father Ted.
or Ballykissangel
Father Ted was a BritCom; Ballykillangel was a drama.
Right ho! Father Ted. Alas, I see that it has gone the way of Amazon Prime or expensive DVD.
I watched much of Ballykissangel at one point. And the specials, about the town where they shot it becoming a tourist attraction, and all that.
MANY years later I watched a really good police drama, “DCI Banks”. It was high quality from the start, but the writing and acting kept improving thru all six series. (It was also nice that it was not yet complete when I started watching, so I could join in the fun of waiting for the next series each time, and reading all the publicity releases etc.)
After it was done, and I was still consuming secondary sources, I saw a description of lead actor Stephen Tompkinson’s career, and Ballykissangel was mentioned as his major work before this. I thought, was he one of the villagers? Then I saw it said he was a priest, and I thought, oh from a neighboring parish? Or the second one, that they brought in at the last season after losing the first one? No, it said he was the first one. I had to go back and watch the premier episode to convince myself. I remembered some of the plot for the whole series, but not what the lead guy looked like!
Father Ted begins here . . .
I have to admit I know about them, but never watched either.
There is an excellent YT video discussing/interviewing the writers of various BritComs.
Never cared too much for FATHER TED, but am a fan of a lot of other British tv and (especially) radio comedy, and highly recommend this book for fellow fans:
https://www.hamiltonbook.com/britcoms-faq-all-thats-left-to-know-about-our-favorite-sophisticated-outrageous-british-television-comedies-paperbound
Folks, I think the good people of Ireland would have big problem calling Father Ted is a “BritCom”… The show is very Irish, especially the topic matter of deconstructing the Church and its hold over Ireland. The fact that due to a history of British oppression they have to go to Britain for funding and production because that’s where the money is is just added insult.
Speaking of pie . . .
larK is quite right. I think we started calling it British because we got it from BBC (via PBS).
I don’t recall seeing Father Ted. I did see many of the first season of “Bally K”. Ones that I am following currently are “Father Brown Mysteries” and “Death in Paradise”. The latter is set on a Caribbean island that was French but is now under British control, so the local police chief is a DI from the UK.
Here is another piehole mention:
Is that a Richard Thompson comic? P.J. Piehole appears quite often in his Cul de Sac comic.
Yes, these are called Richard’s Poor Almanack.
https://www.gocomics.com/richards-poor-almanac/about
Now I know where I heard ‘piehole’ . . . MIB II . . .
This’d be cause for divorce [if married] or break up [if not] . . . no one could convince me THIS isn’t extremely rude, if not downright nasty . . .
I want one o’ these in my area . . .
Woozy asks
“spit in the ocean” is a euphemism? For pissing in the ocean? Why would we have a euphemism for that?Whether it substitutes for “piss” or is taken as undisguised “spit”, the point is the disparity of the size of an ocean compared to your meager bodily liquid contribution, which is immediately diluted to something like a homeopathic degree. Thus, the main force of the saying is “it is of only very minor impact.”