I don’t think it’s accurate that people get “upset” at “Baby, It’s Cold Outside”. Rather, I just think some people noted that it was a bit date-rapey. Not as date-rapey as Robin Thicke, but maybe a bit more than zero.
On the other hand, actual (or actual fictional) cavemen acting like cavemen is not really surprising.
“Caveman clubs cavewoman and drags by hair” is a (literary) trope, isn’t it, although certainly not funny now. I don’t know if “Going clubbing?” would have been any better/funnier.
James, absent a universal consensus about the song, I stand by my description.
And in either case, it’s the same principle: something that was acceptable behavior 10,000 years ago, or acceptable humor when this became a comic strip trope, is less acceptable today.
I’d be surprised if there aren’t complaints about this.
But, you know, people only have to listen to the complaints if they care and …. I don’t think the volume of comic readership and the commercial/financial income thereof is going to make the syndicate care and I think B.C. authors won’t care on principal.
I don’t think cavemen club tropes are long for this world. Before this one the only ones I’ve seen in the last 20 years have all be self-aware inversions of them.
I think that the scale is completely different as well. If this comic strip was printed on a t-shirt and became a huge cultural phenomenon and there were no editorials or even memes saying, “Really, dudes?” then I’d think they were somewhat equivalent.
Anyone know if any stations other than the Cleveland one have banned it? I’ve seen references to a California station that also banned it but then unbanned it when a listeners objected to the ban.
Some people may be upset, but others are buying it. Billboard has a article on the song. Sales are up.
Couple of bits of trivia the song is written by Frank Loesser and his wife. He also wrote “What Are You Doing New Year’s Eve?” and Inch Worm. He also received Tony Awards for music and lyrics for How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying and Guys and Dolls.
“James, absent a universal consensus about the song, I stand by my description.”
Can you provide a single instance of a person “upset” at “Baby, It’s Cold Outside”?
The “controversy” reached into my bubble of isolation because a newsmagazine show aired a defense of the song by the author’s I-want-to-say-daughter? saying that the song was never intended as anything other than flirty, and people liked it for a long time, neither of which, as far as I know, was ever in dispute. I’m not aware of anyone who has claimed to be “upset” by the song.
Googling “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” + “upset” produces hits of news coverage of people who are upset at criticism of the song. A quick review of the first page of results didn’t show anyone saying that they were upset by the song.
The number one result is coverage that says the controversy isn’t new… but also doesn’t have anything in the blurb that says anyone is actually upset.
So I stand by MY initial assessment… the number of people actually “upset” at Baby, It’s Cold Outside is nil or very close to it.
A song that people WERE upset by, would be “Louie, Louie”. Now that song’s D-I-R-T-Y… if you imagine the words you can’t make out are dirty.
Getting back to the comic strip: I wonder whether a reference to “walking softly” might have helped (even if that would be “über-geezer” by today’s standards).
P.S. Since when has Wiley been wearing eyebrows borrowed from a Catwoman costume?
Marshal, there’s been criticism of the song for years. The announcement by the radio station has turned it into a national debate, with other stations (more quietly) removing it from their playlists. That this all would ultimately turn out to have been a publicity stunt, AND that sales if the song would spike if not skyrocket were both predictable.
Some people whose opinions I respect find the song objectionable, but I go with Tom Lehrer’s “When correctly viewed, everything is lewd.”
All that being said, though, I find the trope of a caveman taking a club with him on a date, as 2018 humor, ESPECIALLY in the #metoo era, in very questionable taste. In fact, given B.C.’s recent history — even with Johnny Hart gone — I can’t rule out the possibility that this strip was intended to provoke.
Not saying it was, just not ruling out the possibility. Especially because, you know, there’s much of a joke there.
Marshal: The two Christmas stations that we listen to in the Seattle area seem to have just silently stopped playing it. I haven’t heard them say “we’re not playing this any more.” But they play a pretty limited list of popular Christmas songs, so its removal was pretty noticeable.
@ Bill – I think you need to tie a second “not” into that last paragraph.
Until someone mentioned it, I hadn’t noticed it was Wiley. I wouldn’t expect anyone to ask a known misogynist if he’s going on a date.
If it had been Cyanide and Happiness, the second panel would have been him knocking the Fat Broad in the head with the club and the final, double width panel would be him furiously rutting her, bloody head and all.
I don’t think anyone’s “upset” by the song, but I know plenty of people who are in the “wow, have you ever *listened* to the lyrics– It represents values that shouldn’t be condoned” camp. It’s an overstatement to put it as “Liberal snowflakes demand innocent song be banned”.
I’ve never particularly liked it. On the other hand I *do* like “Santa Baby” which my friends who refer to “Baby, It’s cold outside”as “rapey” refer to “Santa Baby” as “creepy”.
On the whole I’m of the “less christmas music– the better” opinion.
. . . and why I prefer Medieval, Renaissance and New Age Christmas/Holiday music . . . they either have words in other languages, or no words at all.
“Baby It’s Cold Outside” isn’t even a Christmas song. I’ve enjoyed the back and forth, but nowadays (post Bill Cosby), the line “What’s in this drink” jars. I’ve never heard creepy in “Santa Baby” (only absolute materialism) so now I’ve got to relisten.
@ Arthur – I don’t think Mason has been that careful about maintaining the classic signature details for all of the B.C. characters (which is probably a major reason why some readers can’t distinguish them). Thor is still inventive (on occasion), and Curls is (somewhat) sarcastic, but I haven’t seen a strip playing on Wiley’s dual aversions (to women and water) since Hart died, and Clumsy Carp seems to have been reduced to an optional extra.
I’m just sick of the song, and have no idea why they play it over and over and over again. Every. Single. Year.
I’d rather they ban “Grandma got run over by a reindeer”. No sense in promoting vehicular homicide and hit and run.
I SECOND THAT EMOTION! Always loathed that song . . .
I’m with Keera – “What’s in this drink” gives it a really dark turn. For me. YMMV.
People read too much into the “What’s in this drink” line.
[The line “Say, what’s in this drink?” was a common phrase women would use as a way to chalk up their deviance to a strong drink. The phrase was originally a nod to the idea that alcohol is “making” them do something unusual when there is actually nothing in the drink—the drink is the excuse.]
(Click grey-highlighted text for the an analysis of the lyric)
The linked page interprets the girl as being willing but worried about implications of her staying late with the man.
Her reputation might suffer.
(Just to clarify my attempt to be clear, there are blocks of song lyric text on the linked page that you can click on for analysis)
I’m not a fan of IsaacNewton’sBirthday music in general, but my greatest pet hates are “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,” “All I Want for Christmas is My Two Front Teeth,” and especially “Rocking Around the Christmas Tree.”
Bah, Hum(afewbarsandifyoufakeitI’llhurtyou)Bug.
“The linked page interprets the girl as being willing but worried about implications of her staying late with the man.”
I’ve been hearing that as a justification a lot this year, but I can’t comprehend how anyone thinks that’s *better*!
Wanting to do something but worried about societal implications so dishonestly putting up fake resistance so you can claim you were overcome against your intentions but, oh, well, that’s how life and men we women are is *SOO* much worse, than a guy trying really, really too hard and not respecting her reluctance.
And seriously, if we are going to be talking about society’s attitudes towards consent and mutual respect, then this kind of coying playing heard to get and societal double talk nudge nudge is the very birth of “rape culture”.
….
Okay, I don’t think we need to convince everyone that the song means what we think it does, I don’t think demanding expungement is the answer to anything, and I don’t even think a negative reaction to questionable judgement in works is a desirable response. But I do think that *I* personally have always been put off by the song.
And it’s not even a christmas song. (For that matter neither is Wham’s “Last Christmas” just because a song or movie takes place during christmas doesn’t make it a christmas song of movie…..)
“All I Want for Christmas is My Two Front Teeth”
. . . and the similarly-annoying song, “I want a Hippopotamus for Christmas”.
Frank Loesser was evil, and he freely admitted it; when he and his wife performed this song, he always said that he was the evil of two Loessers…
But the best Christmas song of all is “Fairytale of New York” by The Pogues.
I’ve always been partial to “Christmas Wrapping” by The Waitresses.
There’s no Christmas like a Kung-Fu Christmas.
I wonder how songs written today will stand in 50-75 years.
Will they mis-read situations that seem normal to us?
The music service at work has a very tight playlist so each day we hear the same songs over and over. Some songs I think I’ve heard two maybe three times during an 8-hour shift. I’ve heard various arrangements of “Baby It’s Cold Outside” and “Last Christmas” and two versions of “Feliz Navidad”, which IMHO doesn’t stand multiple playings. And, how many times can you hear “Jingle Bells” and not want to scream? :-)
“All I want For Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth” was mentioned. The only arrangement of that one I like was recorded by Spike Jones and his wacky band, with lead vocals by George Rock.
All in all though, I think I enjoy the ancient carols and hymns and some early-mid 20th century songs best. They tend to have memorable melodies and sound great sung in harmony. The more recent holiday songs just feel lacking. (Example: “Last Christmas”.)
Also, “My Favorite Things” (From “Sound Of Music”) happens to not be one of my favorite things. It’s not even a Christmas song.
Now, relating to the theme of outrage, not long ago I stumbled upon a random blog profanely savaging the classic Charlie Brown Christmas special. Charlie Brown seemed depressed. How could that be funny? the blogger raged. I just came across another mentioning the various other CB specials, and the writer thought the kids were cruel to Charlie and that bullying wasn’t funny, the sentiments echoed in the comment section.
but my greatest pet hates are “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,”
I have hear that this song had reactions in that past. After all, Mommy should not be kissing some other man.
What’s worse, Brian, is that he’s okay with his mother kissing another man as long as the other man’s bringing him stuff.
Esentially, the.kid’s pimping out Mommy.
I remember the first time I heard “Christmas Wrapping” on the radio — 1982 — and I knew it was going to become a standard.
The REASON this stuck in my mind is that I was pulling into the parking lot of the A&P at the time (the supermarket mentioned in the song).
And of course A&P’s been gone for 4 or 5 years now and the song is still around.
Well, I can certainly be grateful that 1) I don’t listen to the radio (Sirius is worth every penny); and 2) I stick with Medieval, Renaissance (whose words I can’t understand, but whose music is soothing) and New Age (which is 99% instrumental).
woozy said,
“And seriously, if we are going to be talking about society’s attitudes towards consent and mutual respect, then this kind of coying playing heard to get and societal double talk nudge nudge is the very birth of “rape culture”.
YES! Thank you. ….
“Okay, I don’t think we need to convince everyone that the song means what we think it does, I don’t think demanding expungement is the answer to anything,”
I agree. I think a lot of people just quietly dropped it over the years (I know I did) but insisting everyone else drop it too is a step too far. IMO.
“What’s worse, Brian, is that he’s okay with his mother kissing another man as long as the other man’s bringing him stuff.”
I never thought he was okay with it. I interpreted it as he was utterly confused and perplexed and kind of upset….. which makes the humor of finding a kids confusion cute and charming kind of disturbing to me.
====
“Now, relating to the theme of outrage, not long ago I stumbled upon a random blog profanely savaging the classic Charlie Brown Christmas special. Charlie Brown seemed depressed. How could that be funny? the blogger raged. ”
Oy.
“Santa Baby” creeps me out partly because of the cutesy-poo baby-voice it’s frequently sung in. I haaaaate that.
(I also don’t know anyone who is literally upset about “Baby, It’s Cold Outside.” Vaguely icked out, sure. But not actually angry. I understand that it was not intended to be creepy, and that it reflected the attitude of the time, which was that a woman couldn’t agree to stay the night with a suitor while keeping her reputation intact. I also understand that times change. And I know that people who have been pressured sexually, or actually assaulted, by people who used the same sort of “I’m not going to take no for an answer” tactics that the male singer uses are bothered by the song. I don’t think it’s ridiculous or unreasonable to refrain from playing it. It’s not even a Christmas song!)
In my high school and college years “No means No” was a rallying cry. This is very definitely a “No means yes” song.
“it reflected the attitude of the time” so? Why do people think this is an acceptable or relevant comment. The times were sexist and had many wrong attitudes. And there were people then who thought they were wrong then.
But the point of “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” is that Santa not “some other man”. Obviously Santa is the father, but the innocent kid doesn’t realize that.
Song was released in 1952.
From Wikipedia:
“The song was commissioned by Saks Fifth Avenue to promote the store’s Christmas card for the year, which featured an original sketch by artist Perry Barlow, who drew for The New Yorker for many decades.
The song describes a scene where a child walks downstairs from his bedroom on Christmas Eve to see the mother kissing “Santa Claus” under the mistletoe. “
But the point of “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” is that Santa not “some other man”. Obviously Santa is the father, but the innocent kid doesn’t realize that.
I have seen illustrations that depicts it that way, but most show a traditional Santa. In a “real-life” way that certainly would seem logical. I believe that some families did have Dad or someone else dress up in case the kids were peeking. Reportedly the writer explained it that way when it was “Banned in Boston”.
In Germany, presents are distributed in the late afternoon (or early evening) of the 24th, and some families get a relative, neighbor, or cash-strapped college student to play the role of Santa Claus. I’m glad my wife’s family never did it that way, I would find it difficult to maintain the deception.
Hubby has played Santa Claus; when he travels, he actually has kids (and once, some Japanese tourists) stop and ask what SC is doing there . . . he always tells them that ‘Santa needs a vacation, too’ (Hubby is usually scuba diving somewhere exotic or tropical). The Japanese tourists had photos taken with him.
I became aware of “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” about 25 years ago (I may have heard it before but it didn’t register). A man in my 20s, I enjoyed the music and the performance of the song but considered the lyrics troubling. Even if we allow that the drink wasn’t drugged (though the idea of the “mickey” existed well before the song did; it was a staple of detective fiction), which I didn’t think it was, plying a woman with strong drink so you could have sex with her was unacceptable behaviour. A double standard that required a woman to be seen to put up a fight, even if she wanted sex is terrible and that song clearly shows that double standard. It might well have been some playful back-and-forth between a man and woman who both wanted a union, but the ambiguity was not to my liking.
However, it is “of its time” and is a small vignette of what those attitudes meant when put into practice. I don’t have to condone getting women drunk or the double standard to appreciate the artistry of the song itself. No more than I need to believe in a god to appreciate a nice hymn or the artistry in religious paintings.
The megawoke culture that thinks this song would need to be erased from culture is ridiculous.
What they should be outraged about is “Maybe I Mean Yes,” by Holly Dunn. I was appalled when I first heard it. A catchy tune and a good performance, but there is no context in which that song worked in 1991 when it was released.
1- I was always under the impression that the Santa Claus mommy was kissing was daddy – as I had been told so my parents.
2 – Having seen “Baby it’s cold outside” performed in movies – the thought of date rape never came to mind. In addition I have heard a version of it – not sure where – decades ago as well as within the past several years, where the roles are reversed in singing – the man wants to leave and the woman won’t let him. If that version was the common one, would people still be upset?
Comics I Don't Understand 
I don’t think it’s accurate that people get “upset” at “Baby, It’s Cold Outside”. Rather, I just think some people noted that it was a bit date-rapey. Not as date-rapey as Robin Thicke, but maybe a bit more than zero.
On the other hand, actual (or actual fictional) cavemen acting like cavemen is not really surprising.
“Caveman clubs cavewoman and drags by hair” is a (literary) trope, isn’t it, although certainly not funny now. I don’t know if “Going clubbing?” would have been any better/funnier.
James, absent a universal consensus about the song, I stand by my description.
And in either case, it’s the same principle: something that was acceptable behavior 10,000 years ago, or acceptable humor when this became a comic strip trope, is less acceptable today.
I’d be surprised if there aren’t complaints about this.
But, you know, people only have to listen to the complaints if they care and …. I don’t think the volume of comic readership and the commercial/financial income thereof is going to make the syndicate care and I think B.C. authors won’t care on principal.
I don’t think cavemen club tropes are long for this world. Before this one the only ones I’ve seen in the last 20 years have all be self-aware inversions of them.
I think that the scale is completely different as well. If this comic strip was printed on a t-shirt and became a huge cultural phenomenon and there were no editorials or even memes saying, “Really, dudes?” then I’d think they were somewhat equivalent.
Anyone know if any stations other than the Cleveland one have banned it? I’ve seen references to a California station that also banned it but then unbanned it when a listeners objected to the ban.
Some people may be upset, but others are buying it. Billboard has a article on the song. Sales are up.
Couple of bits of trivia the song is written by Frank Loesser and his wife. He also wrote “What Are You Doing New Year’s Eve?” and Inch Worm. He also received Tony Awards for music and lyrics for How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying and Guys and Dolls.
“James, absent a universal consensus about the song, I stand by my description.”
Can you provide a single instance of a person “upset” at “Baby, It’s Cold Outside”?
The “controversy” reached into my bubble of isolation because a newsmagazine show aired a defense of the song by the author’s I-want-to-say-daughter? saying that the song was never intended as anything other than flirty, and people liked it for a long time, neither of which, as far as I know, was ever in dispute. I’m not aware of anyone who has claimed to be “upset” by the song.
Googling “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” + “upset” produces hits of news coverage of people who are upset at criticism of the song. A quick review of the first page of results didn’t show anyone saying that they were upset by the song.
The number one result is coverage that says the controversy isn’t new… but also doesn’t have anything in the blurb that says anyone is actually upset.
So I stand by MY initial assessment… the number of people actually “upset” at Baby, It’s Cold Outside is nil or very close to it.
A song that people WERE upset by, would be “Louie, Louie”. Now that song’s D-I-R-T-Y… if you imagine the words you can’t make out are dirty.
Getting back to the comic strip: I wonder whether a reference to “walking softly” might have helped (even if that would be “über-geezer” by today’s standards).
P.S. Since when has Wiley been wearing eyebrows borrowed from a Catwoman costume?
Marshal, there’s been criticism of the song for years. The announcement by the radio station has turned it into a national debate, with other stations (more quietly) removing it from their playlists. That this all would ultimately turn out to have been a publicity stunt, AND that sales if the song would spike if not skyrocket were both predictable.
Some people whose opinions I respect find the song objectionable, but I go with Tom Lehrer’s “When correctly viewed, everything is lewd.”
All that being said, though, I find the trope of a caveman taking a club with him on a date, as 2018 humor, ESPECIALLY in the #metoo era, in very questionable taste. In fact, given B.C.’s recent history — even with Johnny Hart gone — I can’t rule out the possibility that this strip was intended to provoke.
Not saying it was, just not ruling out the possibility. Especially because, you know, there’s much of a joke there.
Marshal: The two Christmas stations that we listen to in the Seattle area seem to have just silently stopped playing it. I haven’t heard them say “we’re not playing this any more.” But they play a pretty limited list of popular Christmas songs, so its removal was pretty noticeable.
@ Bill – I think you need to tie a second “not” into that last paragraph.
Until someone mentioned it, I hadn’t noticed it was Wiley. I wouldn’t expect anyone to ask a known misogynist if he’s going on a date.
If it had been Cyanide and Happiness, the second panel would have been him knocking the Fat Broad in the head with the club and the final, double width panel would be him furiously rutting her, bloody head and all.
I don’t think anyone’s “upset” by the song, but I know plenty of people who are in the “wow, have you ever *listened* to the lyrics– It represents values that shouldn’t be condoned” camp. It’s an overstatement to put it as “Liberal snowflakes demand innocent song be banned”.
I’ve never particularly liked it. On the other hand I *do* like “Santa Baby” which my friends who refer to “Baby, It’s cold outside”as “rapey” refer to “Santa Baby” as “creepy”.
On the whole I’m of the “less christmas music– the better” opinion.
. . . and why I prefer Medieval, Renaissance and New Age Christmas/Holiday music . . . they either have words in other languages, or no words at all.
“Baby It’s Cold Outside” isn’t even a Christmas song. I’ve enjoyed the back and forth, but nowadays (post Bill Cosby), the line “What’s in this drink” jars. I’ve never heard creepy in “Santa Baby” (only absolute materialism) so now I’ve got to relisten.
@ Arthur – I don’t think Mason has been that careful about maintaining the classic signature details for all of the B.C. characters (which is probably a major reason why some readers can’t distinguish them). Thor is still inventive (on occasion), and Curls is (somewhat) sarcastic, but I haven’t seen a strip playing on Wiley’s dual aversions (to women and water) since Hart died, and Clumsy Carp seems to have been reduced to an optional extra.
I’m just sick of the song, and have no idea why they play it over and over and over again. Every. Single. Year.
I’d rather they ban “Grandma got run over by a reindeer”. No sense in promoting vehicular homicide and hit and run.
I SECOND THAT EMOTION! Always loathed that song . . .
. . . but I DID like this comic about it . . .
https://www.gocomics.com/theargylesweater/2018/12/04
I’m with Keera – “What’s in this drink” gives it a really dark turn. For me. YMMV.
People read too much into the “What’s in this drink” line.
[The line “Say, what’s in this drink?” was a common phrase women would use as a way to chalk up their deviance to a strong drink. The phrase was originally a nod to the idea that alcohol is “making” them do something unusual when there is actually nothing in the drink—the drink is the excuse.]
(Click grey-highlighted text for the an analysis of the lyric)
https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics
The linked page interprets the girl as being willing but worried about implications of her staying late with the man.
Her reputation might suffer.
(Just to clarify my attempt to be clear, there are blocks of song lyric text on the linked page that you can click on for analysis)
I’m not a fan of IsaacNewton’sBirthday music in general, but my greatest pet hates are “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,” “All I Want for Christmas is My Two Front Teeth,” and especially “Rocking Around the Christmas Tree.”
Bah, Hum(afewbarsandifyoufakeitI’llhurtyou)Bug.
“The linked page interprets the girl as being willing but worried about implications of her staying late with the man.”
I’ve been hearing that as a justification a lot this year, but I can’t comprehend how anyone thinks that’s *better*!
Wanting to do something but worried about societal implications so dishonestly putting up fake resistance so you can claim you were overcome against your intentions but, oh, well, that’s how life and men we women are is *SOO* much worse, than a guy trying really, really too hard and not respecting her reluctance.
And seriously, if we are going to be talking about society’s attitudes towards consent and mutual respect, then this kind of coying playing heard to get and societal double talk nudge nudge is the very birth of “rape culture”.
….
Okay, I don’t think we need to convince everyone that the song means what we think it does, I don’t think demanding expungement is the answer to anything, and I don’t even think a negative reaction to questionable judgement in works is a desirable response. But I do think that *I* personally have always been put off by the song.
And it’s not even a christmas song. (For that matter neither is Wham’s “Last Christmas” just because a song or movie takes place during christmas doesn’t make it a christmas song of movie…..)
“All I Want for Christmas is My Two Front Teeth”
. . . and the similarly-annoying song, “I want a Hippopotamus for Christmas”.
Frank Loesser was evil, and he freely admitted it; when he and his wife performed this song, he always said that he was the evil of two Loessers…
Speaking of what is NOT a ‘Christmas movie’ . . .
https://claytoonz.com/2018/12/16/xmas-hard/
But the best Christmas song of all is “Fairytale of New York” by The Pogues.
I’ve always been partial to “Christmas Wrapping” by The Waitresses.
There’s no Christmas like a Kung-Fu Christmas.
I wonder how songs written today will stand in 50-75 years.
Will they mis-read situations that seem normal to us?
The music service at work has a very tight playlist so each day we hear the same songs over and over. Some songs I think I’ve heard two maybe three times during an 8-hour shift. I’ve heard various arrangements of “Baby It’s Cold Outside” and “Last Christmas” and two versions of “Feliz Navidad”, which IMHO doesn’t stand multiple playings. And, how many times can you hear “Jingle Bells” and not want to scream? :-)
“All I want For Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth” was mentioned. The only arrangement of that one I like was recorded by Spike Jones and his wacky band, with lead vocals by George Rock.
All in all though, I think I enjoy the ancient carols and hymns and some early-mid 20th century songs best. They tend to have memorable melodies and sound great sung in harmony. The more recent holiday songs just feel lacking. (Example: “Last Christmas”.)
Also, “My Favorite Things” (From “Sound Of Music”) happens to not be one of my favorite things. It’s not even a Christmas song.
Now, relating to the theme of outrage, not long ago I stumbled upon a random blog profanely savaging the classic Charlie Brown Christmas special. Charlie Brown seemed depressed. How could that be funny? the blogger raged. I just came across another mentioning the various other CB specials, and the writer thought the kids were cruel to Charlie and that bullying wasn’t funny, the sentiments echoed in the comment section.
but my greatest pet hates are “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,”
I have hear that this song had reactions in that past. After all, Mommy should not be kissing some other man.
What’s worse, Brian, is that he’s okay with his mother kissing another man as long as the other man’s bringing him stuff.
Esentially, the.kid’s pimping out Mommy.
I remember the first time I heard “Christmas Wrapping” on the radio — 1982 — and I knew it was going to become a standard.
The REASON this stuck in my mind is that I was pulling into the parking lot of the A&P at the time (the supermarket mentioned in the song).
And of course A&P’s been gone for 4 or 5 years now and the song is still around.
Well, I can certainly be grateful that 1) I don’t listen to the radio (Sirius is worth every penny); and 2) I stick with Medieval, Renaissance (whose words I can’t understand, but whose music is soothing) and New Age (which is 99% instrumental).
woozy said,
“And seriously, if we are going to be talking about society’s attitudes towards consent and mutual respect, then this kind of coying playing heard to get and societal double talk nudge nudge is the very birth of “rape culture”.
YES! Thank you. ….
“Okay, I don’t think we need to convince everyone that the song means what we think it does, I don’t think demanding expungement is the answer to anything,”
I agree. I think a lot of people just quietly dropped it over the years (I know I did) but insisting everyone else drop it too is a step too far. IMO.
“What’s worse, Brian, is that he’s okay with his mother kissing another man as long as the other man’s bringing him stuff.”
I never thought he was okay with it. I interpreted it as he was utterly confused and perplexed and kind of upset….. which makes the humor of finding a kids confusion cute and charming kind of disturbing to me.
====
“Now, relating to the theme of outrage, not long ago I stumbled upon a random blog profanely savaging the classic Charlie Brown Christmas special. Charlie Brown seemed depressed. How could that be funny? the blogger raged. ”
Oy.
“Santa Baby” creeps me out partly because of the cutesy-poo baby-voice it’s frequently sung in. I haaaaate that.
(I also don’t know anyone who is literally upset about “Baby, It’s Cold Outside.” Vaguely icked out, sure. But not actually angry. I understand that it was not intended to be creepy, and that it reflected the attitude of the time, which was that a woman couldn’t agree to stay the night with a suitor while keeping her reputation intact. I also understand that times change. And I know that people who have been pressured sexually, or actually assaulted, by people who used the same sort of “I’m not going to take no for an answer” tactics that the male singer uses are bothered by the song. I don’t think it’s ridiculous or unreasonable to refrain from playing it. It’s not even a Christmas song!)
In my high school and college years “No means No” was a rallying cry. This is very definitely a “No means yes” song.
“it reflected the attitude of the time” so? Why do people think this is an acceptable or relevant comment. The times were sexist and had many wrong attitudes. And there were people then who thought they were wrong then.
But the point of “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” is that Santa not “some other man”. Obviously Santa is the father, but the innocent kid doesn’t realize that.
Song was released in 1952.
From Wikipedia:
“The song was commissioned by Saks Fifth Avenue to promote the store’s Christmas card for the year, which featured an original sketch by artist Perry Barlow, who drew for The New Yorker for many decades.
The song describes a scene where a child walks downstairs from his bedroom on Christmas Eve to see the mother kissing “Santa Claus” under the mistletoe. “
But the point of “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” is that Santa not “some other man”. Obviously Santa is the father, but the innocent kid doesn’t realize that.
I have seen illustrations that depicts it that way, but most show a traditional Santa. In a “real-life” way that certainly would seem logical. I believe that some families did have Dad or someone else dress up in case the kids were peeking. Reportedly the writer explained it that way when it was “Banned in Boston”.
http://unforgettablechristmasmusic.blogspot.com/2012/07/13-year-old-boys-recording-banned-by.html
In Germany, presents are distributed in the late afternoon (or early evening) of the 24th, and some families get a relative, neighbor, or cash-strapped college student to play the role of Santa Claus. I’m glad my wife’s family never did it that way, I would find it difficult to maintain the deception.
Hubby has played Santa Claus; when he travels, he actually has kids (and once, some Japanese tourists) stop and ask what SC is doing there . . . he always tells them that ‘Santa needs a vacation, too’ (Hubby is usually scuba diving somewhere exotic or tropical). The Japanese tourists had photos taken with him.
Proof positive that SC loves dogs, too . . .
http://www.alldogssite.com/howlidaycards121.html
http://www.alldogssite.com/howlidaycards141.html
http://www.alldogssite.com/howlidaycards151.html
http://www.alldogssite.com/howlidaycards161.html
http://www.alldogssite.com/howlidaycards171.html
A POV about changing morés AND becoming more mature (yes, ‘Baby, . . .’ is mentioned) . . .
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2018/dec/15/year-celebrities-held-to-account-kevin-hart
Are you tired of hearing Christmas/Holiday songs? . . . Then this one’s for YOU!
https://www.gocomics.com/frazz/2018/12/18
Re My Favorite Things not being a Christmas song:
http://www.thefump.com/lyrics.php?id=1616
Okay, so my take.
I became aware of “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” about 25 years ago (I may have heard it before but it didn’t register). A man in my 20s, I enjoyed the music and the performance of the song but considered the lyrics troubling. Even if we allow that the drink wasn’t drugged (though the idea of the “mickey” existed well before the song did; it was a staple of detective fiction), which I didn’t think it was, plying a woman with strong drink so you could have sex with her was unacceptable behaviour. A double standard that required a woman to be seen to put up a fight, even if she wanted sex is terrible and that song clearly shows that double standard. It might well have been some playful back-and-forth between a man and woman who both wanted a union, but the ambiguity was not to my liking.
However, it is “of its time” and is a small vignette of what those attitudes meant when put into practice. I don’t have to condone getting women drunk or the double standard to appreciate the artistry of the song itself. No more than I need to believe in a god to appreciate a nice hymn or the artistry in religious paintings.
The megawoke culture that thinks this song would need to be erased from culture is ridiculous.
What they should be outraged about is “Maybe I Mean Yes,” by Holly Dunn. I was appalled when I first heard it. A catchy tune and a good performance, but there is no context in which that song worked in 1991 when it was released.
1- I was always under the impression that the Santa Claus mommy was kissing was daddy – as I had been told so my parents.
2 – Having seen “Baby it’s cold outside” performed in movies – the thought of date rape never came to mind. In addition I have heard a version of it – not sure where – decades ago as well as within the past several years, where the roles are reversed in singing – the man wants to leave and the woman won’t let him. If that version was the common one, would people still be upset?